Ann DeFalco
Pace University
Pace Librarian
Farsan Bukhari, Breanna Romaine-Guilaino
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Farsan: What department of Pace do you work for? Ann: I’m in the library, specifically at the periodical
department on the second floor. Farsan: Alright, so since when have you been in New York? Ann: I was born and raised in New York City. Farsan: Oh, You were born
and raised in New York City? Ann: Yeah. Farsan: Like Manhattan? Ann: Yes. Farsan:
Alright so, since like uh, how did you come to Pace? Ann: I
started at Pace as a part-time worker in 1999 and several months later was a
full-time employee. Farsan: Okay, and you’ve been working in the library, in
the library department since then? Ann: Right, since inception. Farsan: Okay. So what was your normal routine on the Tuesdays in
the semester when the 9/11 attacks took place? Ann: I normally work an eight-to-four shift and lunch varies
according to the student aid, um, scheduled help that I have, um. That
particular morning was just a regular Tuesday morning schedule, so there was no
meetings planned, there was no um, off-site agenda to be attended to. We were going to stay in the library. Farsan: So like everything was normal and the way it goes
like every, every weekday? Ann: Right. Farsan: Nothing was very
different about it? Ann: No. Farsan: Okay, what, what was your instantaneous reaction
when you heard or like you saw the 9/11 attacks happening? Because I’m sure
like, you were in the city so you might have seen like the second plane hit the
tower but I’m sure like many of the people didn’t do that. They probably heard it
was a word of mouth that spread and then people went out of the building to see
what was going on. Like that’s what happened with me. So, what was your
instantaneous reaction and how did you hear about it? What were you doing at that
time? Ann: Well, the first um, airplane into the tower rocked entire
downtown as if, an earthquake had happened. The windows, the entire building shook,
the floors shook, kind of like an earthquake would feel um, or some sort of a
tremor um. At that point I think phone
calls were flying around the inter-library to see what's going on but if you
walked to the west of the library there’s windows that face the towers and you
can see the smoke. At that time um, I grabbed my purse and I left the building
because my children go to school two blocks from the World Trade Center. Farsan: Wow. Ann: So
I was out the door within minutes and literally saw the second plane hit as I
was traveling through the streets um. When I got to school, some parents had
not left yet from drop off because drop off is eight thirty in the morning at
the school and some parents that don't work such an early shift or don't work
at all hang around the building. So and then other parents did an early drop
off by um before eight, five to eight, eight o’clock and they were already gone
so some of those parents weren't back um, in time to pick up their kids to take
them. So the school was left with hundreds of children to keep safe that
couldn't stay in the building and their evacuation sites were also evacuation
sites. So they didn’t have an evacuation site to take the children. Um the
streets were mobbed, people were running away from downtown, people were
already running towards the bridge. Um, car traffic was at a complete
standstill um, and already you saw persons flying outside windows that were
jumping, that weren’t waiting for help. Farsan:
Yeah. Ann: Um,
then I gathered my two children in different classes and my nephew also went to
school and I left with the three of them to walk back east towards Pace because
I also live close to Pace. Farsan:
Please go ahead. Ann:
You have another question? (Laughs) Farsan:
Okay, um, what did you do? Like after getting your kids, you said you got your
kids and your… Ann: We
headed back home, I never came back to Pace at all. Farsan:
Okay. Ann: I
needed to make sure that um my family was intact and I wasn't going to bring my
children into the chaos of Pace University because people were using Pace as a
site to run into as well because it was a, because it is a strong structure.
But it didn't mean we were in a sound area because we were all too close to the
World Trade Center if it would have fallen, not straight down like it did. Farsan:
Okay, so you actually, so took your kids and your nephew… Ann: Right,
we went home and home is not far from Pace, it's a little more east of Pace, it's
near the water up the East River. But um, before we were considering leaving or
where we would be going because most people that work in the city were walking
home to Brooklyn, Queens or wherever. I was already at home in downtown
Manhattan so for me to leave and go someplace else I had to gather my family
and decide where that safe place would be. Um, it wound up that we couldn't
leave the city because all the roadways were closed. So we couldn't get the car
to leave. We were, we stayed in New York City probably for the first three
days. And in those three days I had no electricity, no phone, no water, because
the entire downtown area was shut off to all utilities. Farsan: Yeah, I do remember because I was in
Long Island at that time and like my parents were trying to call me from
overseas and the calls wouldn't get through. Ann: Right, we had absolutely no electricity no, you know
the refrigerator wasn't working, the stove wasn't working, we had no water to take a
bath. For three days it was kind of gruesome and the Towers burned for months, not
even days or weeks. So the smoke pockets continued. Of course, a year later the
smoke pockets were much smaller but they were constant burning and constant
smoking. If you followed the weather patterns all the air flow goes from west
to east. So it constantly flew over and once it passed us on the east side it
went over to Brooklyn. So we had constant um, odors and uh, burning debris
flying through the air for months and months after. So, and also it wasn't a
sound neighborhood; it was considered an unsound neighborhood to bring taxis or
buses and trains. So nothing ran downtown. People who worked downtown started
probably I think a week to ten days after the, and they actually only put
specific bus routes back on to get people downtown. Farsan:
Yeah. Ann: And
certain trains and blocks and of course the um, the service people were on
every other block with barricades for months so you couldn't walk on certain
blocks during cleanup. It was a very restricted area. Farsan: Yeah, I mean I remember uh, it was my
birthday; my father had come to see me. So like it was like October 20th
and uh, we you know, we were just like by 14th street and after 14th street I
think everything was blocked and it was smelling, it was stinking so much
because of the debris that it was totally, I can’t even explain how it was, it
smelt so weird. Ann: Also
my um, children's school had a very um, difficult time getting back on its feet
because we had no building to send the kids to thereafter. The fire department
took over the school building with rescue dogs and they claimed the school
building. But yet children left their back packs and lunch boxes and all their
pencils and homework and notebooks and since school was only started a few days,
most of their material is brand new. But that left the principal and the
administrative staff to get in touch with families and if all the families live
in the 9/11 district, none of us had phones working. So the school couldn’t
call and say “hi guys we’ve changed the school building you need to attend
school on 14th street and 9th avenue.” So they had to put out news whichever
way they could get it. It was on radio, it was on the television, but not all
of us had television because we had no electricity. So if you weren’t staying
with someone else you didn't know that they were trying to get in touch with
you through the television. And they mentioned that our school had, the Board
of Education had rented a abandoned old Catholic school, a parochial school on
14th and 9th where we were going to put our children. But
the school hadn't been used in a long time and needed to be refurbished. So in ten
days the parents got together, painted, cleaned, washed, bought soap, took
donations for notepads and pencils to try and get some material into the
building. Um, benches and seats were brought in from other places and donated
from other places. Um, every crayon was brought in from outside. So we had to
start all over again and it brought community together with a group of parents
to get their kids what they needed. Meanwhile they were living in areas that
the government told us were safe to go back to even though the fires were still
burning and the streets were still closed and the buses weren’t running and you
couldn't drive your own vehicle in and out because it was uh, under uh, security,
high security, where streets were blocked off um, even for people who lived
there. You couldn't, if you didn’t show an ID you weren't allowed and even when you did show an ID
you weren't always permitted to walk home. Farsan: So which areas were
these that you mentioned as being safe? Or the government said was safe for
people to go back to? Ann: Anything under Canal
Street. Farsan: Anything under Canal
Street? Ann: Yeah, and they’re
finding now that some of the rescue workers are dying from 9/11-related
concerns and it’s coming up even now. So I don't know how safe the air was or
living here for us for them to tell us that we can go back home ten days after
the incident. Farsan: I mean uh, you’d the
example that you gave me that everyone brought in things and you know donated
things for the school … Ann: World Wide! Farsan: That’s an excellent example of community
work. Ann: Yeah, it was. Locally,
every parent, I'm talking went with wash racks and cleaning windows and floors
and paint, donated we all went. You know, we didn't hire painters and cleaners.
We went in as a parent group and fixed that school but we got donations
worldwide. From other countries, from every state, here’s supplies for school
you know, letters and notes and stuffed animals for the kids and just an
outpouring of support. But, um I don't know how much, you know, it gave the
children support, it gave the parents support, but these kids were, their world
and whatever they trust, were shaken from them. And what they, was repetition
and what was constant and what made them feel safe was completely taken. Many,
many kids went to therapy for months after. Farsan: Oh my God, that's
terrible. So like uh, did you, did you feel after the 9/11 catastrophe happened,
did you feel unsafe or safe? Like how did you feel about it? I mean you must
have felt really jittery or for that matter one gets paranoid because none of us
has been ever so deeply gotten effected by something like 9/11. Ann: Um, I was angry. I was
very angry that I was, my family was forced into this experience and not only
were we forced by the terrorists, we were forced by our own government to come
back ten days after the attacks and it was okay to live here and reside back in
your home. And they’re working on the phone lines and they’re working on the
water and they’re working on the gas pipes um, but it was nowhere near normal.
And you would have thought you were in Iraq or Afghanistan when you walked
downtown that first two months after the incident. You didn't know you were in
New York. And yet if you drove out of the city, New Jersey or other boroughs,
life was very normal. It was only very abnormal in that very vicinity. Although,
everyone was affected by 9/11 in some way because it was a disaster that was
world affected. Even in, it didn’t matter what country you lived in, it was economically
going to affect you or because of what the terrorist do um, every country was
on guard. Farsan: Oh definitely. Ann: But um, I was angry
that my children had to know this. I was angry that I was forced into changing
schools and walking on certain blocks and was it for my protection? I don't
know 9/11 had already happened. I think for two months, three months after,
they put residents through hell when it could have been better organized. They
should have had a data on who lived where or treated certain residents differently
or the children differently. Um, you’d walk out your door and there’d be
soldiers with Uzis on the corners, I mean it really wasn't normal. There was Hummers
with machine guns on the top around City Hall and uh, I didn't understand… Farsan: Yeah I mean… Ann: who were we attacking
or why we had those trucks there in that presence? Yeah, we needed a strong
military presence but we weren't having a ground war. Farsan: Definitely, I agree
with you. Ann: It wasn't a ground
war. You know, and um, normalcy took months and months and even now today, is
there normalcy? Well there’s normal, the stores, some of the stores are back
open. We've lost a lot of customers because of the people who rented in the
Word Trade, LaTouche Bank, those people aren’t here anymore. They’re scattered in
New Jersey, their uptown, their offices are many places. So normalcy is it back?
I don’t know because my son was uh, four years old and he was going to be five
that November and he was in his first uh, couple of, uh, first days in kindergarten.
He had come from pre-k so is it normal for him? He was afraid of airplanes for
the longest while and he um, he’s not as trustworthy as uh, some of the other
children. I think he’s more skeptical. There’s a lot of things about his
personality today that have been induced by 9/11. Um, he’s a very sensitive
child. He’s very intuitive to things around him and I think 9/11 forced that
upon him although he was intuitive and bright. But um, at that age
you have to, you know, your teacher, where your school is, where your house is,
where your mother is that day. Everything about what was normal for him or that
made him feel safe was taken from him. And does we see things in his character
today that would make him a little more co-dependent? Does my son need therapy?
Um, no he’s not crazy, he doesn't cry. He doesn't have tantrums. But for a
while he would eat and he would build his carrots like the World Trade Centers
and said he fixed it and you know, play with clay or draw and that's how kids
show their emotions. Farsan: Yeah. Ann: Because they don't
talk like adults talk and they do it through clay or though and that's all part
of the process. He needed to express it and out but um, Americans have changed
forever. Do I feel unsafe now? I don't know if I feel unsafe. I think terrorism
has always been there. I think it was there forty, fifty, sixty years ago but
it wasn't there on the scale we have it today and children have a great
responsibility, whether you’re in grade school or middle school or high school.
I can’t imagine being a high school and a college student going out to get a
job to face a global world where jobs are turning very global, when so is
terrorism. So I’m not sure where all that’s going. Farsan: So do you think
like, do you, do you think after five, how do you feel about this after like five
years? Ann: Well I do a lot of
community service. I’m a member of Community Board 1 in Manhattan and I’m on
the Youth and Education Committee so I advocate for the parks and the schools,
um, the youth fairs um. We didn't have parks up and running after 9/11. We’re
trying to restore a lot of our areas for our children that were destroyed and
messed up after 9/11. Our pools, for our community centers, you know
everything. The glass was broken on
the window, there were cracks in the pavements umm so the ball fields were you
know destroyed, they had to redone, everything had to be redone after 9/11. So
five years later as a committee representative for you; we’re still restoring um
recreational and educational opportunities for children in this area. Farsan: Okay, and um, do
you feel, do you feel personally emotionally affected by 9/11 attacks? Like you
told me about your children and children are like they’re sensitive, they’re
like flowers. I mean just like an un-fragile touch and you know, leaves a mark.
It’s not that it makes like makes someone crazy but it does leave an impact. So
how, how do you, would you feel, would you say that you were deeply affected by
this like in an emotional way? Ann: I’m angry, I’m still angry. After years I think there’s such
a pattern of cycle. You get angry you get sad, you get there you know, it
passes and then there’s another stage, there’s a denial stage and then there’s
an acceptance stage. I think they happen in flows but after five years, um, I’m
not a person who sulks and I think people who sulk become depressed and
saddened um. You have to have a purpose and keep going and moving on because
that's what life is all about you still celebrate birthdays and still have
parties. 9/11 doesn't take away the essence of life, not by far. Not by what
the foods people eat and how they celebrate. Um, and as a parent and community
rep, no I don't, I don't feel emotionally disturbed by it. You know I’m more angry
that the experience even existed and that it brought on the concerns we have
today with policies and government and other countries. But no, it’s time to
continue living and educating and being there and just living life. Farsan: Ok if you think
like uh, before you said that you feel that this is not only the work of
terrorists? Um… Ann: Well, I think our
government is at fault for not protecting us using, I think what we do is we become
complacent and we don't maximize our potential. And I think as a government we
need to maximize what we do for our citizens and I think that's where our
government is at fault. For failing us to not maximize how they could have
protected us or made better policies or made better decisions or--you know the
border problem and the ports problem and the smuggling problem and there’s, you
know. But these aren't problems that are new, these are problems… Farsan: They’ve been around, Ann: that has been there
since centuries. Farsan: Centuries. Ann: So it’s about
maximizing what we can do for quality of life for everyone. So that's, that’s
what bothers me that we don’t maximize and we have the technology, we have the
smarts. It’s not about not having resources, Farsan: We have a lot. Ann: we have them all, we
have them all and so do other countries, so do other countries. We have the resources.
Something has to be done to get the job done and what they do is they argue of
policy and the better way to do it. And they waste years and months and
precious lives and meanwhile you have scholars, you have people, scholars that
know and can help plan out what needs to be done. Never mind just political
leaders, you have professionals in every field that can be... Farsan: Professionals,
agencies, bureaucracies, everything... Ann: Oh my gosh, yeah. So
somehow government has to bring it together to make it work and it’s not, nothing’s
impossible. Everything is possible, you just… Farsan: And plus like it's really not impossible
because we as a country are, we are like strongest in the world. Which is a
blessing but we, I think we’re not utilizing that to the max. Ann: Right and that's everything we do. I find
even right here at Pace University I’m always trying to maximize my department.
How I can better be efficient in a shorter amount of time, how can we better
serve, how can I train my student aides. What can we do to maximize. Even if it’s
changing the position of furniture, if it maximizes how someone can study. It
could be the simplest thing up to the most complicated. Having you know
electronic equipment that we didn't have before but we can service the students
with that. We have to stay diverse and diverse maximizing that. And I think it
comes with good organization that, that has leaders, I don’t want to just say
managers, has leaders that know how to bring this together. Farsan: Do you think, do you think allowing a
lot of diversity in New York or America is the root of the problem that we are
facing today? Ann: No I think diversity can cure it. I think when
you want people to fit a form, it’s impossible. You can’t fit the people, you have
to fit the society to the people. So the diversity’s only going to make people
happier and less crime, if we accept the diversity. Of course you have to have
guidelines and regulations and laws--that's without saying-- but we cannot block
out diversity; if you block out diversity you destroy America. Farsan: Yeah, I think that's what America's
symbol is. It's a mixture of a lot of people and that's what makes it America. Ann: Yeah. Farsan: So okay, do you think U.S foreign
policy, past foreign policies with other countries have enraged people to do
something like this? Ann: Um, it might have played a part I don't
know about enraging. I think those people had agenda's already from past
history and those countries um, there’s no possible excuse no matter how bad
for anyone to behave in such a manner, it is not human, it’s very inhuman, it’s
very insane. Farsan: Very inhuman. Ann: It is um, sick
behavior, it is sick. Where these, you know, people need to be treated for this
kind of sickness. Whether they are warped to think a certain way, whether they’re
brainwashed however um, I always use it like a rock. You can’t reason with a
rock so if that person or that rock is sick and that mind is sick, you can’t
talk to it, you can’t have conversation with it, you can’t reason with it, you
can’t argue with it, you can’t debate with it, doesn't matter. Doesn't matter
how much data you come up with, how much proof you come up with that it could be, you know, the wrong way to
think or the wrong way to act or, it doesn't matter. When you’re sick it
doesn't matter. You cannot change a sick mind. Farsan:
There is no justification. Ann: No,
and you cannot heal that sick mind, it cannot be healed. That's why we have
institutions that we medicate some people and others are in special services or
care because they cannot live with society and yeah, those people are very
sick. It's not about being evil or being bad, it’s not, it's beyond evil, it is
beyond evil. It's inconceivable for humans to behave in a manner, so there’s
something very, very sick there, very sick. And to have followers, you’ve made
them sick like you, they’re sick in the mind. Farsan:
Yeah! I agree with you because… Ann: There’s
no, and I don't want to make fun of people with disabilities but for instance,
you’re born with chromosome dysfunction and you are confined to a wheelchair
and you can never speak and you can you know, you can see with your eyes and
you can taste but there’s parts of you, your brain doesn’t think properly. It
cannot do mathematics like a normal brain can do mathematics um, but you cannot
cure that. Surgery can't fix you, medication can't fix you. So I’d like to
compare these people look normal to us. And they, oh, they just believe or they
read or they’re, they’ve taken their religion and turned it into a cult and
they believe this. They’re, they’re sick people and when you don't educate in
the healthy sense and you give people no options and you force them to the
lowest standards of living it’s very easy to have them follow you if you
promise them a better life. So if they prey on the weak, because they’re
certainly not preying on the educated and normal. They’re not preying on the
educated school child… Farsan:
Yeah, they’re… Ann: or
they’re not targeting people who have a better life. They’re targeting the
children and the young people that have nothing and I’m talking children nine
and ten year olds. They’re not targeting even, you know, yeah teenagers.
They’re in Africa; they’re in, all over, trying to group up soldiers. Farsan:
Yeah, I totally agree with you cause I come from um, I’m from Pakistan… Ann: Uh-huh.
Farsan:
but in like, we are like from a, we are, me or um. Ann: I have
friends from Pakistan as well. They’re from regions where you went to school
and you work. Farsan:
You go to school life is very normal, it’s very, it’s pretty cosmopolitan. Ann: But
there’s people who don't have those options or blessings. Farsan: Exactly so what they do is, like, it’s like any military institution.
Like say talking about Al Qaeda or the Taliban, what they do is they recruit in
places
where people don't have much to do. Ann: Well then here we go
back to the government, your government. The people that have money, have money
to take care of them, you have the money to give them schools. Maybe not you
know, diplomatic schools but you have money to give them schools. You have
money to give them food plans and if you did Al Qaeda couldn't get them. Farsan: Yeah, I totally
agree with you. Ann: And you and worldwide,
like America doesn't have to donate to you when the President of Pakistan is
drinking from a gold cup, you know, and this is in every third world country.
There isn’t a third world country that the prime minister is not sitting on an
expensive couch in a fancy bedroom. Farsan: I totally agree
with you. Ann: Okay, so they don't
need US help, they need to better govern themselves to help their own people. Farsan: Then that’s and you know what it’s… Ann: And I don't mean to
insult any culture… Farsan: No. Ann: because America needs
to do a better job right here. We have people living on minimum wage, that's a
disgrace! We have kids in overcrowded schools that need schools for thirty
years and not in lesser economic areas because we forget about those kids. And
it doesn't matter if their school’s overcrowded and the bathroom doesn't work.
But in a higher class neighborhood and a better neighborhood the school is
gorgeous and it’s not over crowded. So we do it right here but America does
make provisions with Medicaid, and financial aids… Farsan: Definitely. Ann: where you can go to
school for free and eat for free and get food stamps if you had to go on a
program. They make some options, although we need a lot of help with our
programs but it’s there and other countries just don't have it. Farsan: They don't have it.
Yes, I agree with you. I think like, do you think the basis of this is
corruption at the governmental level? Because I think where people, people or
fundamentalists like Al Qaeda rise is where corruption is there. When your
leaders are corrupted, they, they don't support like the people like the
nation. And when they are not supported they’re left for just, they’re left to
starve and then the only option they have is probably to get recruited by Taliban
or Al Qaeda. So how do you feel about that? Ann: I think that pure
government is a dream, I think it's a fantasy, I don't think it's physically
possible. I think there will always be some forms of corruption but I think but
not even for bad reasons. I think sometimes you’re politically, you’re forced
your back up against the wall and decisions are not always made for the better
of the reasons. So does that means corruption is good? Absolutely not but can
we ever change the government and clean it out, even if you replaced every
official within six months to a year, they’re going to be corrupt all over
again. How do you keep it pure? I mean it's very, very difficult, you could
come close to staying on track and it should be monitored, but I almost think
it's humanly impossible not to have error because we’re humans. Farsan: Do you think, do
you think waging war with Iraq was anything relevant to 911? Ann: I don’t think war is
relevant period. I’m not an advocate of war by far. Farsan: And uh, how bout,
do you think like if, we all heard through, I don’t know if you read the 9/11 Commission Report? Ann: uh-uh (no) Farsan: Um, in that they state
that you know there were budget cuts for the FBI or uh, something like that and
I don’t know for what reasons. Do you think if they like, do you think like,
you know like we have this feeling and this thing in ourselves that uh, you
know the FBI knows everything. So do you think that it would of, it was
possible for them to know and they didn’t come to know about the 9/11 attacks
for because of some reason? Ann: I don’t know I have
such mixed feelings on that. I think some information was there, do I think
funding would have helped? No, I think maximizing what we do, helps. I think
when you’re so use to not maximizing every day, you don’t need more money to
help you maximize. You need to think stronger, you need better organization. You
need a better leader to help you stay maximized. And not every day you’re going
to be perfect and not every day could be maximized but I think Americans are in
general. I think we work too much, we don’t have enough time off and it
prevents us from maximizing. I think if we had more holidays or time off in
between or flex hours for people to live their lives with their families and
work. I think people would be happier and more efficient. We’re burnt out,
Americans are burnt out. Farsan: Totally I agree
with you because I feel the same way, it’s like the nine to five schedule every
day. Ann: Yeah, but even so
people work and go to school. It’s no more I can go to school while I have a
student loan or you can’t, people can’t afford student loans for their families
anymore. You can’t have a student loan for more than two kids then you’re
broke. Um, and then you as a student is not just going to school like in the
old days because you’re parents are paying for your loan, you have to work too.
So survival means I only have twenty minutes to study cause I have to start my
job and then after my job I’m going straight to class and then I come out of class
I’m going back to work. And then myself, I have children and I work a full day
and then they have homework, they have schedules, after who belongs to sports--there’s
no family time. America has made no rest time. We don’t even rest on the
weekends, we’re running 24 hours. Take your laptop with you, you can work anywhere,
you know? I mean laptops were good for diversity and good for globalization
where people have to get their job done but we don’t, we are so geared to being
busy. We’re not maximizing because if you can’t rest you can’t maximize. The
human body and mind needs to rest to maximize. Farsan: Definitely. So you,
so like how do you think, how exactly do you think rest works? Lessening work
or like less stress can help us out? Ann: Oh I think we need to
take a lesson from some European countries who have siestas in the middle of
the day, certain companies just close down. When there is a holiday you do
close the doors and you give your employees a paid vacation instead of having
them come in um. There’s so many little things that Europeans do to enjoy life
that Americans don’t. Farsan: Yeah, yeah I agree
with you because I've been to Europe and I’ve seen their lifestyle, they’re very
relaxed. Ann: Right and I’m sure in other
countries too there might be different ways or techniques to help the people
gear up and gear down, you know? Um, there’s got to be something we do for the
human in us that can make us work harder or think stronger because we’ve had a
rest. Farsan: Definitely. Um, how
do you feel about foreign policy and how do you think the government can make
things better and protect us from future attacks? Ann: By maximizing, back to
maximizing. We need to, we have all the resources, I really believe that. I
believe we have all the educated people and scholars to help us through it. I
think we’re scientifically ready. I think we’re technology ready. I think we’re
educationally ready, I think it needs to be put together to maximize. There
isn't a system we can't do or start or have or, it's all there. Farsan: Yeah and I, would
you say we have to be more alert, like or our government or agencies have to be
more alert? Ann: Maximize! We’re not
maximizing the alertness that's on the job. Farsan: Yeah! Ann: If we maximize what we
have we wouldn't even need to hire more. Or if we gave these people rests in
between or alternate their schedules so that there was always someone on duty
and always someone resting. You know computer programmers sometimes work
through the night and work through the night and work through the night. You
know, how do they work at their highest potential if they never slept the night
before? Or like a nurse or a doctor does a double, three-day shift, what is
that? So that when you do surgery you don't know what you're doing? Or how
about having them do a normal day so they can come and do surgery at their
maximum. Farsan: Yeah, I would agree
with that. Ann: They’re humans! How
do, I don't want a doctor doing a surgery on me after he did a double shift, absolutely
not. I don't want a nurse serving me in the hospital if she hasn't slept. Farsan: Um, would you agree,
would you agree that like, I like, you know, we have this, I was talking about
this before I don't know if I am being repetitive but we all have this feel
that you know okay, whatever might go wrong the undercover would know about it
or… Ann: Trust that they knew
what was going on? Farsan: Uh, I’m not saying
they knew it was going to happen but do you think like, would you think that
they knew about it or they, they could have gotten enough knowledge to stop it? Ann: I, Yeah, I think with
maximizing our resources we could have better handled everything but I still
feel that about everything. I think Americans don't maximize because we’re
overworked. And if they did, they’d be better organized in their office. They
would have better organized their response. They would have better organized their protection! I think it just would
have all fell into place on a higher scale instead of the dramatics that we
saw. Farsan: Yeah, you know I think the biggest shock is that America really considered the most
powerful country in the world, we’re a superpower. We’re probably like ruling
the world in a way like we’re ahead of everyone. And, I mean, it came, it came
as a shock to the rest of the world, economically, financially like in every way,
that a country like America could be so vulnerable to attacks like this. Ann: Well, truthfully in education we are not anymore. Statistics
show that we’re on the same scale as Poland. We used to be number one in the
world. Now we are not even in the top twenty and we’re spending more money
every year per year on prisoners than we are on a school child. So our tax
dollars are not going and then when you drop out of, eighty-five percent of
prisoners are dropouts from high schools. So if we put more money into high
school and we helped kids in high school we’d have less people in prisons
anyway to put money into. Then when they come back out to society they’re not
functional and they land back in there and we are all victims all over again.
So we’re not on top anymore with education and our prisoner situation is
getting out of control. Farsan: So you think if uh, more money is invested into high
schools perhaps… Ann:
Education. Farsan:
the system is more maximized and taken care of? Ann: There you go.
Ann: It
feeds back the society in the long run and costs less money in the long run and
less jails and less victims. Farsan: Yeah, I think that's the right thought because
education is basis… Ann:
It’s the key. Farsan:
It’s the key. You educate someone and he will not like, I think that would go
for any country. Ann:
That’s right. Farsan:
He would not become a terrorist. He would not become, go to prison. It's all
about education. Ann: Because he had education and options that he wouldn’t
have normally and not everyone wants to be a doctor or a lawyer. There’s
others, you know. We have professions as like electricians and carpenters that
make wonderful lifestyles. You don't have to be a lawyer. You can have a talent
as an architect and do well, you know? You can be a hands- on mechanic and you
know, work with computers. Farsan:
Yeah. Ann: There
isn't any possibility that wouldn't be available to you to have an acceptable
lifestyle that would not make you turn into doing, you know, things that work against
society. Farsan: Yeah, that is very true and honestly speaking, I
think America is most beautiful at that part because it has so many things to
offer. Ann: But we have all these resources. Farsan: Yeah. Ann: We’re not maximizing how we’re using them and its
hurting us in the long run because our societies are becoming worse. Farsan: Yeah I think this, I think uh, the problem of being
overworked that you were just telling me right now, it’s within the society, it’s
within the culture, it’s been so deeply engraved. Ann: But then you can’t maximize. Farsan:
Exactly. Ann: If
you work, you know six days out of seven and expected to do that again the
following week or even if you shortened hours but you still went in those six
days, when did you rest? Because you’re not just going home from work, you’re going
from work, most of us have families or other lives or commitments besides the
job. So how do you split yourself, you know? I think on a regular basis a forty-hour
work week is too maximized. Or even if it is, then in-between you still got to
give more vacation days or, or, I’m not talking about giving vacation days till
it becomes chaotic. You know, I’m not trying to be radical. Farsan:
Of course, see yeah, no. Ann: I’m talking on limits and um… Farsan: To let the other person take it easy. I mean… Ann: Yeah, yeah and use shifts, like not everyone I know
we are becoming diverse. We’re not just having nine-to-five shifts. Companies are
really changing that and working from home or you know, we’re giving more
diverse options about how we can the job done but we still need to remember,
that we have to rest to maximize, cause you can’t maximize if you’re exhausted and overworked. Farsan: Um, definitely. I
mean that’s, that’s what it is. See, this is
the difference over here it’s like overworked and this is like maximization
becomes a problem. In third world countries, problem, is there’s not… Ann: The
problem’s the opposite. Farsan:
It’s the opposite. I mean there’s no work, that's why people are sitting at home. That's why
they get, this is why they get the, the chance to join such an organization that
is, that is truly they don't think. Because what they do is, that like, okay, these
what, Taliban what these people do is like, okay, you are not supposed to be,
like, you’re not supposed to do, they like draw really tight guidelines.
They’re keeping severe conditions and what they do is they say that you cannot,
like okay, this is what you do in the way of Allah and you’ll get like, you
will get seven, you will get seven really pretty girls in heaven. So, I mean
that’s, you know, when it's a way of giving them incentive. That know, okay, you
do this and you get that but in this world won't get anything. So that's,
that’s their way of saying that but I think, I think that your totally right
because I think the basis of all the problem is loss of education because
there’s not enough education. Ann: They’re not taking care of; their government is not
taking care of them. Farsan:
Not taken care of. Ann: So
they have nowhere to go. Farsan:
We don’t have enough schools. Ann: You
don't feed them and you’re not educating them and not, I’m not saying make them
scholars, I’m saying give them enough. Farsan:
Education, take care for themselves. Ann: To
give them opportunities to make those decisions on their own, yeah. Farsan:
Yeah, I mean that’s, that’s… Ann:
Yeah, I would love for everybody to have everything. I’m one of those who
wouldn't have limits. I would have college free all the way up to the top. Farsan: Totally, but do you think, you think 9/11 attacks could have
been stopped by any way? Ann: Could they’ve been
stopped, hmm. I think history, throughout
history there will always be tragic events and there has to be cause you
wouldn't know how to stay enlightened if you didn't have tragedy. So I think it’s
part of life, but do I think on those kind of scales? Uh, that’s pretty scary!
The tsunami scares me on that level of destruction, you know? Um, 9/11, that
kind of destruction I don't know the right word is for it, I don’t know but it’s
just not, you don't know good until you know bad but you don’t need, no one
needs a lesson like that, no one needs to see the tsunami to know they have to
be kinder to each other. It shouldn't have to come to that. Farsan:
Yeah, I mean, you, you… Ann: And
I don't believe in a punishing God. I’m not one of those people and that upsets
me. God, why would he do this? You know what? God loves people too much to hurt
them and kill them, I don't think it’s God. I don't think God gives people
diseases or I don't think it’s God who makes you disabled. I heard one
woman speak one time, her child was disabled in a wheel chair, had some sort of
a disorder that came on with birth or something. God knew that she would be a
trooper and get herself through this. What? I don’t, I don’t understand that! God
gave you a daughter to be disabled? I don't think so. It’s something I can’t fathom.
A God wouldn't do that. A God I don’t think would teach lessons through,
through you know, rape, through death. Yeah, we all have to die but not violent
deaths like that. Like, to me I think there’s definitely another force in the
universe that supplies the disaster part of it because I don't think a God can
do that to his people. You know as a parent I don't think I can kill my child
to give him a lesson. I don't think I can take his arm off to show him what it’s
like to not have one. So a God loves his people too much to hurt them or to
make them disabled or to give them AIDS. Do you understand my point? Farsan:
Yeah. Ann: Different
religions have different ways of looking at that and I think religion separates
people. But I think if you look at it on a very spiritual level of what a God
really means… Farsan:
No and uh. Ann: as
opposed to what, another force. I don't even want to call it evil. I don't know
the right word but there is definitely another force that works. Farsan:
You know like in Islam, people that the religion, the religion says that God
loves a child, loves a person more than like seventy mothers. So I’m connecting
it to what you are saying. So if he loves his people… Ann: So
much. Farsan:
so much, why would he do that? Ann: He would never do it. He would look at, he wouldn’t
make that baby born disabled, he wouldn't do it. There’s hundreds and hundreds
and thousands of people every day that are in wheel chairs that go to
facilities because they can’t live normal functional lives. They’re born with all
types of Down’s syndrome and autism and God does that? I don't think so. There’s
something else that interferes in the process. Farsan: Religion wise, I mean thinking wise, mentality,
anything I think I would agree with that because you know if you love, if you
love your people… Ann:
You can’t hurt them. Farsan:
so much, you can't. Ann: You can't hurt them, you’re gonna give them food,
you’re gonna shelter them, you’re gonna give them clothes, you’d give them
medicine. There’s another force. Farsan:
Totally. Ann: I
didn't mean to turn this conversation into um spiritual or religious. Farsan:
No, I totally understand because I, I believe… Ann: Because
I am not a religious person by nature but I do believe in, in uh spirituality. Farsan: But then see uh, I wouldn't say you converted into another sort of a
conversation… Ann:
Okay. Farsan:
because it’s you know that’s what conversation is, it turns from, it takes one
point, it makes another turn and you know, you never know where it goes so you
know because one thing is connected to the other, you know? Ann: Right, especially in this case. Farsan: Oh yeah, definitely. There’s so many things
involved, there’s so many things connected with the 9/11 catastrophe that, that
it’s totally… Ann: I
think everybody now at this point needs to contribute to life and society and
do their part. Not just because 9/11 happened, just “because.” Because we’re
humans and because we have to maximize how we can better treat people, how we
can better eat, and how we can better take care of our children and our friends
and our neighbors. How we get around every day from point A to point B. I think
everyone has a responsibility and if they understood that, we wouldn't have
this chaos that we have. And that's what I think 9/11 should have forced people,
just like the tsunami, would have forced people. You don't need a disaster like
that to wake you up, do you? Or can’t you just be kind to people anyway on an
everyday basis, can’t you, you know? Farsan:
That’s what it is, I mean. Ann: Is
that the kind of wakeup call we need to be more supportive and become a
community? No! Get up every morning and be that community. Do your job to the
maximum. You know be that purposeful person. Farsan:
Yeah, that's, that’s, that’s so right. I mean. Ann: Without
9/11, with 9/11, you know, with the tsunami, without the tsunami. Look what
happened to Pakistan, the earthquake, oh my goodness. Those people went through
a horrendous winter right after that earthquake. Farsan:
Yeah. Ann:
No, no supplies, no food, no nothing! Nothing… Farsan: No nothing. Ann:
Nothing, and the number of people who died, it was unimaginable. Okay, I can't
even think of that figure and the number of people. Farsan:
You know the problem like you, it is so like you know, like over here in
America people are like overworked, over there no one is overworked. Ann:
They’re not using their potential at all. Farsan:
They’re not using their potential at all. On the other hand, now I would like
to say like they don't use their potential. Like it’s not that they don’t use
it and they want to, but there’s some people, there’s some leaders, they just
don't want to use their potential. I mean they’re getting, they’re getting
okay, they’re… Ann: I
don't know why, why don’t they wanna? Farsan:
Yeah. Ann: They’re
not useful to the society, they don't practice, they don't participate, they
don't have purpose. What's their purpose? Farsan:
They’ll get bribed, they’ll just you know, all they’re thinking… Ann: So
that's their purpose is to be bribed? Farsan:
They, they’ll get bribed. Ann:
That's why I’m telling you, there's another force out there. Farsan:
Yeah. Ann:
There’s another force because it wouldn’t happen. Farsan:
I mean you know what would happen, an authority would give the money out. Okay,
let’s like, let’s support the people who were affected by the earthquake. Let’s
give them food, water, supplies, blah-blah-blah. Ann: And
then something comes in between them. Farsan:
And something comes in between that. Ann:
The supplies don’t get there. Farsan:
You come to know that the person who is responsible for that. Ann:
Sold the items, Re-sold it on the market. Farsan:
He, it was never there or what he gave was something cheaper than that was
supposed to offered. There’s always some sort of, some sort of thing that comes
in between. Ann: I
told you we’re humans there’s always going to be error but we can’t expect
perfection but we can definitely be accountable for, for our purpose. People
have to be held accountable, you’re not
held accountable then it wouldn't matter. And I think that's what happens all
the way up from the top down in any country. Where you’re not held accountable
and the next man is not held accountable, and the next man is not held
accountable, it goes all the way downhill. Farsan: That’s, that’s
true. Ann: And you destroy
yourself as a person and everybody else around you. One bad thing you do today doesn’t
affect one person just like one good thing. One good thing you do, some sort of
trickles somehow even if you don't see it. That one bad thing, that one lady
gets robbed in Central Park but it’s still a trickle of society. So… Farsan:
It goes from person to person. Ann: Yep. Farsan: So that’s, that so… Ann: So do you have any
other questions for me or we’re good? Farsan Actually there’s uh,
do you know what the time is? Ann: Time is now, quarter
to twelve. Farsan: So it’s been how long? Ann: I don’t know but it
feels like an hour. Farsan: Okay, this is
about, this is about, two more questions.
I asked you like would you think this could be stopped? Ann: Do I think it could be
stopped? No, I think history will always have disasters but I don't know about
the level, maybe the levels would be different. We wouldn’t have these
escalated… Farsan:
A disaster of this level, a disaster of… Ann: Any, whether induced by people or well so was
the earthquake, so was the tsunami because if we didn't um, burn garbage or throw
plastic in the water we wouldn't have the global warming that we have so its
all back down to people because we don't respect the earth or each other or
religions or so I think we have always had disaster cause we are humans, we’re
not perfect but I think the levels would be smaller if we were smarter. We handled
things more… Farsan:
And, do you think we as a community, like the
whole community, hold on, taking care like can we do, can we as a community
stop such things from happening? Ann: If everyone’s accountable, yes. If everyone’s
accountable and has a purpose, yes. But can we do that? Can it be done?
Education can help, education can help us there. Farsan:
Definitely, yeah I think education can… Ann: And I don't think any one life, or child or
person should be left out in any country, in any place. Every mind, every
person is worth the education. Farsan:
Because as many as, as many people would be left
out. Ann: You can go to the simplest village and go and
want to teach and you'll be the happiest man in the world and you can go to the
most sophisticated school with more sophisticated equipment and like it there
too. Farsan: Yeah! Ann: You know, there isn’t
a place that you wouldn't enrich a mind if you didn't try. Farsan:
So emotionally you weren’t affected? Like you… Ann: Emotionally yes but I was more angry because I
understood it on a bigger scale. I understood that it wasn't, you know, a
personal attack on my life but yet an attack on the world and how we live and
what we do and our polices. So I’m angry that we’ve come to this point when we
have so much resources to have not made those kind of escalading disasters. Farsan: It’s disturbing. Ann: We really don't have
to be in Iraq all this time. Farsan: Yeah. Ann: We didn't have to stay
in Vietnam as long as we did. Like there’s… Farsan:
So many people lost their lives and it’s not that,
it's also civilians there. Like they’re, I don’t think they’re responsible for
anything. Civilians are civilians be it like they’d be any, be it any country
in the world and they feel the same way, you know political. Like Pakistan and
India, they’ve been in war for the past fifty years. Ann: Yeah, yeah I know. Farsan: Like civilians they
don't care, they just wanna be, they’re like okay, leave us alone, you know?
Leave us, leave us free. Ann: No
I understand exactly what you mean. I think
education and accountability are two things that would really maximize. Farsan:
Maximize, stop such a disaster from happening in
the future, totally. Ann:
Yeah with everything, with
respect to the products we make that pollute the world and the air and the--everything. Farsan:
So what made you angry, like you say, you say
you know it made me angry? Ann: What
made me angry? You know we have the potential and
we don't use it, that's what makes me angry. When you know you can help someone
and you choose not to. You know you can make a better decision if you maximize
yourself but you don't, that makes me angry. Makes me angry with my children's
teachers in school, makes me angry here at work. If I’m counting on someone to
support something else I’m doing and they don't maximize that upsets me. You
know but I can't be them, I can't work for them, everyone has to be
accountable. Then we go back to accountability. Farsan:
Have you seen the movie Fahrenheit 9/11? Ann: Certain things I just won’t watch. Farsan: Yeah. Ann: I saw a lot on 9/11
and it’s enough for me right now for a long time. Farsan: No I, I mean, you
being there. Ann: You know the people
jumping, the plane, the shake of the building, the whole the running with my
children, the not having the place to sleep with water and you know the whole. Farsan: It’s terrible, I
mean. Ann: Phones not working, not
knowing where my sister was and you know just everything just piled on top of
piled. I saw soldiers outside with Uzis and Hummers and all kinds of things
that, you know. Then I went on vacation, took my children to swim with dolphins
as a healing experience right after 9/11, that summer. And we got on the plane
and the snobby, rude woman who worked for the
airline you know, who was looking for terrorists had me and my two kids pulled
over to the side to check our feet if we had any, you know, paraphernalia that
we were taking on the plane. Farsan:
Oh my God!! Ann: I
had on flip flop sandals and I still had to take my shoes off. They made my
five year old son take his sneakers off to look at his feet. Now, I don't know
why that lady did that. Was she being a cocky, nasty thing? Yeah. Was she uneffective
not maximizing her position? Yeah. Did I look like a terrorist, do our names
look like terrorists? No, and this was our first trip after 9/11 and I said to
the man checking my son, he just went through 9/11, can you please not scare
him while you’re checking his feet? That makes me angry. I don't
know if I looked too pretty for her, or because I had two children that were
gorgeous and maybe she didn't have any children or maybe she didn't have a
husband or maybe she argued with her boyfriend that day or maybe her boss was
on her case to check only females and children that day. I don’t know but all I
know is that she said “check them.” We were second on line to board the plane
because they do children first, elderly and stuff like that. And my daughter is
only a year older than my son. So he was five she was six, so if he was four
she was five. And then you have two other officials working at a table checking
bags just before you get on. Seriously, you know, checking my son's feet.
That's, you know… Farsan:
Awkward. Ann: that's
insanely stupid. That is not maximizing anything. Farsan:
It happened with me too. Ann: But
then I had to explain to my children what that means, that's the hardest part. These
people are protecting you, my kids. “Protecting me, mommy we just got bombed
out of our house, we have no school to go to. We go to a different school now. They’re
helping us by checking my feet? They’re supposed to be protecting me, not
checking me.” How do you make sense of that as six year old? Farsan: You can't. Ann: That was I think that was Jet Blue Air, I never flew them
again. I figured if they had to have policies enforced by the government that they
should enforce them properly. Farsan: Um, I mean I went through the same thing. Um, I was born here,
raised here a bit. Then I was raised in Lahore, Pakistan. So I go back every
semester because my parents are back. So it's been four years, five years that
I've been here and uh, nothing, nothing like you know, I traveled after 9/11,
before 9/11 a lot of times. I used to come down to New York every year. Ann: And how often do you get harassed? Farsan: I got harassed, I wouldn't say I got harassed, but some weird
behavior. Like my flight was coming from Dubai to New York, it was a straight
flight. So I came, I landed and like, we’re chosen for a random spot check. I
go to the other room and uh, you know they just ask me some questions, what do
you do? Where are you from? Now I expect that us, like our government,
our country, our agencies are efficient enough not to take only me away from
that aircraft. Ann: See how unacceptable
that is, but you are from Pakistan, I’m not. Farsan: Yeah, exactly! Ann: So they and neither is
my five year old son, so it made it less acceptable that they were harassing my
child. Not that it's acceptable that they harassed you not by far, but you are
right our intelligence was it maximized they would know better. Farsan: They would know
better and they would not take people on the side. Ann: And if you are doing
everyone, then you do everyone. Farsan: Then you do
everyone. Ann: You don’t just do my
five your old boy, you do every person walking on the plane. Farsan: Yeah or for that
matter you just don’t pick up anyone who looks from Arab descent. Ann: (laughs) you know so
it’s things like that can, that becomes frustrating because we’re again not
maximizing our potential and we have it. Oh it’s going to be expensive, it's
going to be this - we don't have to fingerprint everybody and look at their
fingerprints again. You have everybody's name and tickets and there’s ways to
do it without spending billions and billions. Cause we’re spending billions on
war and it's not helping us. Farsan: Yeah, I mean we’re
going in a deficit. Ann: Oh my goodness, oh my
goodness! Farsan: That thing on 14th
Street Union Square, it’s like dropping down. Ann: It’s outrageous, it’s
outrageous. Farsan: So you uh, one last
thing, Ann: Okay. Farsan: So you said uh, your
sister, you were worried your sister, your sister? Ann: Well, we all live
downtown, they all work downtown. I had a relative in the seventy something,
no, was she on the seventieth floor? No, sixty-four and the plane hit on
seventy something, the first plane. So she escaped the building that day while
others didn't that she worked with. Um, my father of course works in New York
City, he’s all over the city on that day and, you know, just your closest
people that you would want to know were safe you couldn't speak to them. Phone
lines were down, traffic was at a standstill, you weren't sure who was coming
home, so that kind of thing. Cause you know, usually you pick up the phone and
you find out where they are and on 9/11 you couldn’t. Farsan: Alright, thank you
so much. Ann: Alright pleasure, hope
your project works well. I hope I was a good candidate. Farsan: Thank you so much
for your time, definitely you were, definitely you were because the main, sole
purpose of my interview is not like to you know, just what happened? What did
you do? It's about, it’s about taking the way of thinking of people, different
people and how others think about different things and especially such a
catastrophe that took place on our soil. So thanks a lot and… Ann: I hope that you are
purposeful and maximize yourself every day, because I will. Farsan: Thank you so much,
I really appreciate your time. Ann: Okay, thanks!
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